- Stuart Gray
Obviously you have been sent this link as I think it is far more professional to do it this way – better still would be if this had not escalated at all – but as you read through you will I hope realise exactly how good advice has been turned into a paranoid , conspiracy theory on his part.
Please feel free to share this PRIVATELY to any interested parties – but not publically, lets not clog up the gen pop with this nonsense – I am only going this far to avoid damage to my reputation (many say I don’t need to as it is already solid) but this is my choice.
I have only used names publically where Stuart Gray has.
THIS IS A LOOOOOOOOOONG READ.
MID OCTOBER 2015.
I get a friend request from a Stuart Gray – as always I have a look at his profile and notice his header quote as “ promoter of Rock and Metal in London. Officially turned a passion into a full time business”. Curious as I had never heard of him I scrolled through his timeline to spot an arrogant set of posts from 22nd Oct (which I screen captured). I didnt add him and mentioned him to nobody. I did note that despite him claiming to be a “promoter” that he appeared to have never put on a show.
|
A while after this I start to hear his name – but never in a good light – venue workers asking “who is this guy , strolling around giving out business cards without even having done a show” / “he didn’t know he was standing next to (famous singer) in the pub until he googled him and then went “oh” / “have you seen this bloke – he thinks he is Harvey Goldsmith”. I also got enquiries about his attitude from bands. At this point he was just a topic of conversation, little did I know what a volatile egotist he really was.
|
It soon became apparent that I had booked a show in my “hub” venue that clashed with a date he had his first show on, all of a sudden I started hearing from people “he is saying you want to close him down” / “apparently you deliberately put on a free show that clashed with his” / “be careful he used to work with the guy who runs Download” / “he’s a bit stroppy and he really doesn’t like you” (I took this all in my stride – apart from not caring ever about the 80+ promoters / wannabe promoters and DIY outfits that are my competition – and knowing I had discussed the “clashing” show with the venue in early October before I even knew he existed, it has never been my style to “go up against” anyone – I do what I do for the love (which is why I have scaled down my operations in the last few years and found other ways to pay my bills).
I believe there may have been a few conversations in private where it was said “well he’s fucked charging a tenner with our free show around the corner” but it really wasn’t important (did he expect every venue to not put a show on the same night he did? – (There you go mate London is yours – we will all just have a cup of tea and stay home for you ).
You have to also remember that most new bands that he (or many other) promoters put on I have already done shows with. I had no competition with him, nothing to prove (I think 10k + bands in 15 years speaks for itself) and already had the pleasure of working with most of the bill he had compiled .
By now I had also had the interesting experience of meeting him face to face (see below) I thought this would finally put his paranoia to rest but I kept hearing more and more about this “conspiracy” against him.– now from good mates I trusted.
By this time he had cancelled another show he had booked at the Underworld due to "an incident" involving his mate (?) but the venue had grabbed the original headline for it and he had gone BALLISTIC on Facebook about it (posts / videos - seems to do a lot of them) – Underworld salvaging the headline seemed like good business sense to me?. I must admit I got riled – spoke privately to a few good friends on Facebook about it – the general consensus was I should message him in private – but be prepared for anything.
Because of his attitude I did then ask one band to join my bill instead of his (well he had already accused me trying to fuck him over) – they did the right thing (and I respect them for it) – they refused stating “we don’t want to go against him as we already committed to his – no hard feelings” – Fair enough – professional to the end.
Days after the “clashing “ shows were over, I bit my tongue from my usual “grab by the horns” stance – I sent this via Facebook private message diplomatically trying to get my point across whilst offering some good advice. As you can see his response was pretty level (ish)
I believe there may have been a few conversations in private where it was said “well he’s fucked charging a tenner with our free show around the corner” but it really wasn’t important (did he expect every venue to not put a show on the same night he did? – (There you go mate London is yours – we will all just have a cup of tea and stay home for you ).
You have to also remember that most new bands that he (or many other) promoters put on I have already done shows with. I had no competition with him, nothing to prove (I think 10k + bands in 15 years speaks for itself) and already had the pleasure of working with most of the bill he had compiled .
By now I had also had the interesting experience of meeting him face to face (see below) I thought this would finally put his paranoia to rest but I kept hearing more and more about this “conspiracy” against him.– now from good mates I trusted.
By this time he had cancelled another show he had booked at the Underworld due to "an incident" involving his mate (?) but the venue had grabbed the original headline for it and he had gone BALLISTIC on Facebook about it (posts / videos - seems to do a lot of them) – Underworld salvaging the headline seemed like good business sense to me?. I must admit I got riled – spoke privately to a few good friends on Facebook about it – the general consensus was I should message him in private – but be prepared for anything.
Because of his attitude I did then ask one band to join my bill instead of his (well he had already accused me trying to fuck him over) – they did the right thing (and I respect them for it) – they refused stating “we don’t want to go against him as we already committed to his – no hard feelings” – Fair enough – professional to the end.
Days after the “clashing “ shows were over, I bit my tongue from my usual “grab by the horns” stance – I sent this via Facebook private message diplomatically trying to get my point across whilst offering some good advice. As you can see his response was pretty level (ish)
10th January 2016
I was going to send you this last week (regarding the Underworld) but it looked like you were under pressure with what was essentially you first fully accredited show so I let you get that out the way.
Hold on?
That evening you were at the Dev around 10.30pm.
You approached my female security colleague and after mentioning the names of several bands you are “working” with – none of whom she had heard of (as she is not a “metalhead”) you introduced yourself with your business card (to her) you went on to say (and I quote) “yeah I see how you operate – very professional - I want you working for me at the Underworld”. She politely replied words to the affect of “if you require security I could talk to my boss and possibly arrange something to suit your event but don’t the Underworld have their own door team?”.
After stating that “they do but I would have you working with them” you then turned to me – said something like “and the big dude just sits there quietly taking it all in – he aint taking no shit” before handing me your business card stating you were “Stuart Gray – Promoter”.
At no point did you mention any actual “issue” with the Underworld security team (despite talking continually) and certainly did not indicate there had been any incident earlier that night that would fit with what you describe regarding your friend at the venue. Maybe you JUST decided to re-locate the Skreamer show? (financial reasons?).
Shortly after this – my colleague was handing flyers to the people who passed her to enter the smoking area – whilst I don’t believe you were given one I clearly saw you eyeing a flyer that somebody else was reading – and overhearing conversations about the flyer that I was having with others – the flyer was for one of my events.
You left suddenly – without a word to anyone. I can only assume that up until that point you had not realised who I was in the context of London promoters?.
My colleague and I discussed this briefly – not only did we agree that there would be no way you could get your own security to work your gig at Underworld - we also agreed that this conversation was highly unprofessional given that all local security know each other – obviously if your account on Facebook is correct then the right course of action (as a promoter) would be to approach management at the venue and request an assurance that your customers would be afforded courtesy and professionalism from staff. Not to pull the show!. Not email the boss then repost it publically!. Not argue publically with the band in question and certainly not make videos and post them on Facebook!.
I would like to give you some advice Stuart – before you have so many prominent opinions –establish yourself (have you actually done any of your own shows yet?). It is fine to have an opinion but I would suggest you think carefully before doing so publically – with over 15 years and 10k + bands that I have put on around the London underground circuit I have a reputation for not taking any bs and saying what I think – but the general consensus (from local bands to global management) on me seems to be that I consider who to strike at and when – I don’t piss on my own bonfire in public before others have fuelled the fire.
Having a great working relationship with EVERYONE at the Underworld for almost 20 years I would say you have dealt with this whole matter very badly (and the only reason they would have held a deposit is if you had left them in the shit to fill a night) – up to you if you want to listen to friendly advice and experienced opinion?. You left the Underworld with a hole in their calendar that nobody would blame them for trying to fill. Obvious choice – ask the band who had been all set to play there and had told their fans / following they were doing so - your public tantrum and email to the Underworld has just about sealed your fate tbh – nobody will allow your email to Jon to influence their thinking in your favour – he commands a lot of respect for what he and Tidal Music achieve.
I have already heard complaints privately from four people in the “industry” about your attitude – seeing the way you acted in front of me – and now this, pretty much confirms this – for somebody who complains about “losing money “ and being a “self employed promoter” when you have little of a track record I would suggest maybe you re-think your career choice – all real promoters lose money – it’s a fact (especially now – in London) that you do it for love – for somebody who proclaims “Officially made a passion into a full time business” I really do not think you can fairly warrant that tagline – if your earlier statuses are anything to go on then you are driven by entirely the wrong motivation (a £10 ticket for a Saturday show at Black Heart isn’t attractive – but I wont do your research for you - Outright Resistance are a great band – I know as I worked with them last year a lot but they I am sure will admit they don’t have the pulling power to cover a tenner door tax show that will pay them well, cover the expenses and make you a living).
I have worked with Skreamer, also a great bunch of guys – I really don’t think they should be held accountable for your lack of understanding of the bigger picture for shows in London, certainly I would defend them and Underworld to the hilt – purely on their track record – something you really need before making these kind of noises on the London circuit.
Whilst I embrace, encourage and help if required with new promoters in the scene - due to your previous Facebook comments (I have 10k business cards printed yearly – so what?) I chose not to accept your Facebook friend request but part of my job as a”self employed London underground promoter of Rock, Metal & Alternative – since 1999” is to stay up to date with what all venue, bands and “promoters” are doing – I expect your attitude to be one of arrogance in response to this but it is purely down to you if you chose not to see I am actually trying to do you a favour.
MW
10 January 15:53
Thanks for the message, that night i kept my feelings hidden, i didnt have an issue with the security at the underworld just thought you were better was all, was only moving venue due to the staff and being told to leave even though it wasn't me who was barred, the venue i was relocating was more money and had nothing to do with finances. Flyers i did not see, that night i had my eyes on a friend who was having issues after just breaking down about some personal problems, which the security guy at the underworld helped with and witnessed, sorry if we are getting wires crossed. I left in a rush because the girl i was with was being stupid spilling pints and acting a bit wild and it ended up me baby sitting her, another friend that night who i was with had disappeared for hours and i got concerned where he had gone as he only left for a hotdog. I said about hiring as a security team as more of a banter conversation as she was having a go at people and was on the ball with the job, If at any point in the future i needed security was what i meant. (was a bit drunk also) found out after this night that skreamer were threatened with a knife by the old security member and this was a reason they agreed to move venue. On messages from skreamer it clearly states "we have had a couple of problems with underworld in the past so we are more than glad to move venues" It was made public then i hit youtube, i never said anything bad until death threats came, i also have have promoters and festivals say they have heard whats gone on and back me 100% and after skreamer made it public as a slandering they would never book them. Empty slot was the reason i agreed to only be refunded if it was filled, also have that on messages. I can understand your message from points of view, and i had no issue with you ever, you clearly have made your mind up about me without a sit down and a chat, when i met you i thought you were a warm nice fella who showed respect to others and no i did not know you were a promoter. The way i see things is yes, i will make a loss and im willing to do so for the bands sake. All i want to do is give them fresh fans, i care not for the money, my passion for metal music, people can see that. I was told on the 8th from someone that came over from the dev you put on the show to get me out of town and leave the show empty, I knew from seeing the free entry i was fucked lol, I dont want to make enemies in an industry i love so much, i admit my emotions went way to far and personal with underworld, we make mistakes we all regret, if i could turn some time back i would do as i think it could of been dealt a different way, social media is a cruel place at times, i can only say Mick im not a bad person and if you see my track record it shows i love to give more than take, with Sophie lancaster fundraisers, currently still trying to get 20k for a all terrain wheelchair for Luke who needs a replacement, for the same family Andy copping agreed to giving the family with disabled children backstage passes this year. I would rather work with than against anyone, if we could wipe the slate clean and maybe work as one for fundraisers and projects for the people would be better than arguments and outbursts
You are no threat to me Stuart. Stop listenening to runours. I really dont have to make up my mind about anyone. I do what I do and my track record speaks for itself. This was the culmination of many conversations from influencial people regarding your general attitude. Best of luck for the future. MW
So that was that – or so we thought. On Tesday 12 January – out of the blue I spot this on his timeline this (and respond accordingly)
Stop your paranoid nonsense Stuart - nobody is plotting against you, nobody is trashing you - The Dev show was planned from last October!. As I say my track record speaks for itself - but I have heard some of the rubbish you have been talking about me. If I am in any way ripping off bands why am I doing M2TM (for the 5th year running). I dont work with other Promoters as the margins are too small so get your facts real straight. Anyway - stop trying to discredit me privately or publically - get on with what you are doing and try to take a little of what I have said on board. This stops now - any further comments, oppinions or threats you want to make should be clarified now, nice and professional in private , or we can go public any time you want - better still just get over it and stop wasting everyones time.
Tues 08:48
Not mentioned your name once, so strange how you would assume this. You give me the names or name of the spy cunt on my account and we can stop right now. You see mick im a little old school with the thing called loyalty and when someone is calling me a friend and then pasting comments to you we have a big problem. Iv been told of stories and situations about you that i would never make public, after all iv got a past like every other man and we do what we do to make it through this world. Iv not made any threats nor have i said your name once. I couldn't give two monkeys who you are and im sick of seeing backstabbing lying cunts who say their friends when all they want to do is add fuel, stop wasting your time messaging me and crack on. And just for the record i sent business your way yesterday as a band said they were after an experienced promoter that uses the dev, i cant be that bothered if im actually sending work your way. Just for the record the managers and bands wrote to me and i never mentioned your name they guessed. Again i want that name who needs to come off my list or we could have a problem.
AND THEN HE POSTS THE VIDEO.
This is still on his timeline (I have a copy) - he groans on about how hard done by he is, how he can expose everything, what he has heard and various other anecdotes, veiled threats, he veers off topic throughout and quotes from my message interjected with complaints about the Government along with offering his family history. I now realise he is off key . One final attempt before I decide to deal with this differently – I pm him again:
Tues 15:16
Stuart – this is the end of this – this final clarification is exactly that.
Up to you what you do after. No PUBLICALLY you have not mentioned me by name, I will not play this stupid game with you – just think about the private conversations you have had with people – or better still move on.
You admitted you could have handled the Underworld situation differently – the same applies here. Yeah I too am old school – I trust nobody and never let anyone know my next move – just like I once heard you WORK FOR Andy Copping – most of this is innocent rumour, Chinese whispers , gossip and suchlike (8 years ago I put on a band who brought NOBODY – to this day, because I only paid them £20 petrol they are saying I ripped them off – fuck them, I lost £170 that night).
I have no time for that and in this business loyalty lasts as long as your last soundcheck. Period.
Make your mind up – one minute you want to know who these “cunts are” – in the next breath you say “ stop wasting your time messaging me and crack on”. You have your wish – you wont hear from me again if you take this message on board – I would suggest you tell your little Facebook “army” to reel it in – in public and private , I can deal with any further outbursts in a number of ways – the most obvious being a “Cease and Desist “ Notice for Defaming my character.
Let’s not even go any further with this ( NOTE: THIS in itself is your admission that you have Libelled my good name) “Just for the record the managers and bands wrote to me and i never mentioned your name they guessed”. (note – I am not asking you who they are – I don’t care, I KNOW what I have and have not done – and what I have achieved – these dicks are irrelevant).
Thank you but I don’t need any bands from you (I have put of most that you are now doing a long while ago – some I still do). I have no interest in what you do, say, where you go or your gigs – unless it affects me in a negative way , that’s “negative” not healthy competition (for the record – I have no shows clashing with your next two – have not interfered with your promotional posters or flyers anywhere - nor have I restricted your movements anywhere I work (I have been in Camden for a long time).
I really though you would have wised up after my first message and came back with “yeah sorry mate – I’m a bit leery when I have had a beer – I have deleted all the Underworld stuff, apologised to Jon – let’s have a lager some time”).
“Again i want that name who needs to come off my list or we could have a problem”.I will put this down to your mood – I wouldn’t like to think this was a threat now would I Stuart? I defended my business associates and a band in private – tried to give you some good advice. You choosing to turn that into some kind of vendetta is entirely your choice, as is your decision to stretch this out . Just get on with it – put some bands on! MW
and surprisingly I get this
Wed 17:24
Hi mick took what you said on board, was speaking with Anthony last night and made peace, even now going to meet them on the 9th April, i wanted to clear the air with jon and did feel really bad for the email i sent him that time, Iv spoke to jon today on email, and made peace also. Maybe a good idea all this as after last nights think its now all laid to rest. Be safe \m/
Fair enough - best of luck with what you are doing - we are all ringing the same bell - putting decent music out there. Stay Metal \m/
THE END………….oh no it isn’t………….
So, I go about my business – I don’t book any shows in Feb or March as I am tied up with M2TM, I talk to my “hub” venue and we approach a band to play. The date (like I even care by this point) clashes with another of his shows. The venue and I exchange contracts with the band , pay the deposit and announce they show. (remember Stuart Gray has shows in Feb and March – the “hub venue has shows EVERY weekend as do twenty other venues in a 5 mile radius but this show is in March).
I then (Sunday 17th Jan) get a pm from a band that says:
Sun 20:25
Hi Mick,
Man I'm sorry to hear about all the drama that you've had with Stewart
I'm not sure what's happened there
but he's just sent me a message to say that our show at the ????????? has been cancelled
Do you have a show that night or that weekend that ?????????? can jump on?
Baffled by this I go back to his page to find THIS:
Oh yes he did - despite the Legal warning he NAMED ME IN PUBLIC!!!
Stuart – this is the end of this – this final clarification is exactly that.
Up to you what you do after. No PUBLICALLY you have not mentioned me by name, I will not play this stupid game with you – just think about the private conversations you have had with people – or better still move on.
You admitted you could have handled the Underworld situation differently – the same applies here. Yeah I too am old school – I trust nobody and never let anyone know my next move – just like I once heard you WORK FOR Andy Copping – most of this is innocent rumour, Chinese whispers , gossip and suchlike (8 years ago I put on a band who brought NOBODY – to this day, because I only paid them £20 petrol they are saying I ripped them off – fuck them, I lost £170 that night).
I have no time for that and in this business loyalty lasts as long as your last soundcheck. Period.
Make your mind up – one minute you want to know who these “cunts are” – in the next breath you say “ stop wasting your time messaging me and crack on”. You have your wish – you wont hear from me again if you take this message on board – I would suggest you tell your little Facebook “army” to reel it in – in public and private , I can deal with any further outbursts in a number of ways – the most obvious being a “Cease and Desist “ Notice for Defaming my character.
Let’s not even go any further with this ( NOTE: THIS in itself is your admission that you have Libelled my good name) “Just for the record the managers and bands wrote to me and i never mentioned your name they guessed”. (note – I am not asking you who they are – I don’t care, I KNOW what I have and have not done – and what I have achieved – these dicks are irrelevant).
Thank you but I don’t need any bands from you (I have put of most that you are now doing a long while ago – some I still do). I have no interest in what you do, say, where you go or your gigs – unless it affects me in a negative way , that’s “negative” not healthy competition (for the record – I have no shows clashing with your next two – have not interfered with your promotional posters or flyers anywhere - nor have I restricted your movements anywhere I work (I have been in Camden for a long time).
I really though you would have wised up after my first message and came back with “yeah sorry mate – I’m a bit leery when I have had a beer – I have deleted all the Underworld stuff, apologised to Jon – let’s have a lager some time”).
“Again i want that name who needs to come off my list or we could have a problem”.I will put this down to your mood – I wouldn’t like to think this was a threat now would I Stuart? I defended my business associates and a band in private – tried to give you some good advice. You choosing to turn that into some kind of vendetta is entirely your choice, as is your decision to stretch this out . Just get on with it – put some bands on! MW
and surprisingly I get this
Wed 17:24
Hi mick took what you said on board, was speaking with Anthony last night and made peace, even now going to meet them on the 9th April, i wanted to clear the air with jon and did feel really bad for the email i sent him that time, Iv spoke to jon today on email, and made peace also. Maybe a good idea all this as after last nights think its now all laid to rest. Be safe \m/
Fair enough - best of luck with what you are doing - we are all ringing the same bell - putting decent music out there. Stay Metal \m/
THE END………….oh no it isn’t………….
So, I go about my business – I don’t book any shows in Feb or March as I am tied up with M2TM, I talk to my “hub” venue and we approach a band to play. The date (like I even care by this point) clashes with another of his shows. The venue and I exchange contracts with the band , pay the deposit and announce they show. (remember Stuart Gray has shows in Feb and March – the “hub venue has shows EVERY weekend as do twenty other venues in a 5 mile radius but this show is in March).
I then (Sunday 17th Jan) get a pm from a band that says:
Sun 20:25
Hi Mick,
Man I'm sorry to hear about all the drama that you've had with Stewart
I'm not sure what's happened there
but he's just sent me a message to say that our show at the ????????? has been cancelled
Do you have a show that night or that weekend that ?????????? can jump on?
Baffled by this I go back to his page to find THIS:
Oh yes he did - despite the Legal warning he NAMED ME IN PUBLIC!!!
